3 players in 4 years, 3 different tackles, 3 different reasons, all the same result, all the same culprit.
Dan Smith from Sunderland was the first break an Arsenal player’s leg in the modern era when he did Abou Diaby in the 90th minute of a match that Arsenal was winning 3-0. Dan Smith’s tackle was, at the least, reckless and many would even say malicious. Smith was given a yellow card by Dermott Gallagher for his work and after, Sunderland’s manager said:
Yes, it isn’t an injury you want to see happen to a player. But he went for the ball and the player passed it quicker than Dan could get there. In my opinion, I felt Dan Smith did go for the ball and the lad knocked it away and he accidentally caught him.
This is a criticism you will see repeated as we go on; Arsenal are just too quick and besides which, the other guy just went for the ball, it’s hardly even a foul they will say, much less a yellow card.
Dan Smith played the next day while Diaby was out for 6 months and has never fully recovered. Many people point to his trail of niggling injuries in the aftermath as evidence that the player’s career was essentially cut short by a reckless challenge in the dying minutes of a meaningless game.
At the time, Wenger decried the tackle saying that the referee was the only person who didn’t see the tackle as a red card. He’d be wrong about that last bit, by the way.
That injury was followed by a horrific challenge by “Tiny” Taylor on Eduardo in the opening minutes of a relatively important League match. That match is the starkest in my memory where the manager came out before the match and admitted that teams kick Arsenal and that they wanted to emulate the Bolton’s and Blackburn’s who “get up Arsenal’s noses” by playing them rough. After the match, Alex McLeish was quick to defend his player saying:
Martin is absolutely gutted. Eduardo was just too quick for him. I didn’t think it was malicious. He has come down on his ankle with studs and his standing foot is in the turf, and that can make the injury much worse. People in the game know Martin, and I’m sure he will get their support because he’s hurting. Martin would always go for the ball honestly.
A new wrinkle is added to the story; we kick because we have to, Arsenal are just too quick, and now they are just honest lads, they don’t mean to end a player’s career.
The other bit of follow-up that happened across the country was this pervasive notion by several managers that Taylor’s tackle wasn’t even a foul with Steve Bruce issuing the definitive statement on the incident for many:
Martin Taylor is the biggest, gentlest man, there will be nobody more upset and sickened than him, there is not a bad bone in his body. He would never, ever do anything malicious. He has mis-timed the tackle, and I’ve seen it. Some would say it is not even a yellow card.
Eduardo has still not really recovered from Taylor’s tackle, still suffering small injuries and setbacks and despite it being two years on is only sporadically able to feature for Arsenal.
And today we have this horrific tragedy to the third Arsenal player in 4 years as Ryan Shawcross had come in recklessly and simply done the 19 year old Welshman. Shawcross left the pitch in tears, no doubt upset about what he had done and much like the person who recklessly drinks and drives only to find out he has harmed someone I’m sure he has true regret. Regret’s the least we can expect from him, he’s a human being after all and not a monster like Joey Barton.
Tony Pulis takes a familiar line in defense of his player, immediately after the match, saying:
It is a bad challenge but I know Shawcross, I signed him as a 19-year-old. He has got no bad blood in him whatsoever and there is no way in a million years he would ever go out to hurt anybody. I really mean that.Everyone else at this football club sends their condolences on the incident, we wish him well for a speedy recovery and as a fellow Welshman I am devastated. But Ryan has come off the pitch broken-hearted, met his mum straightaway and gone straight home.
Maybe in a sense we’re seeing a change, 5 years ago the challenge wasn’t a yellow, 3 years ago it wasn’t a red, and now, it’s finally a bad challenge. But frustratingly, the familiar old ghosts are there; Shawcross is a good lad, let’s not get too down on him.
And here’s the thing: I don’t. I don’t blame him, just like I didn’t blame Taylor, ultimately. Sure, the individual shoulders some blame, he doesn’t have to go in high and hard in a 50-50, or worse, studs up, like Taylor did. I blame the footballing establishment which refuses to join the 21st century.
I blame the writers who pen articles with titles like “Taylor backed to recover from Eduardo tackle.” I blame the knucklehead fans who glorify “full-blooded” football over 21st century ball movement and goal-scoring. I blame the managers who take English kids and turn them into talentless leg-breaking hacks. How many injuries would it take before Ryan Shawcross made the Spanish national team?
But I lay ultimate blame for this third broken leg for an Arsenal youngster in four years on the FA and their inability to create competent match officials who referee the game the same for everyone. I say it’s incompetence because, like Wenger, the other opinion, corruption, is almost unthinkable.
I have been on about this last problem all year as teams come out and tell the world that they are going to foul Arsenal, proceed to foul them all over the pitch, and then call Arsenal for small fouls when they try to kick back. The City match away was the worst example up till this point, with Adebayor barely adjudged to have put a foot wrong during the match despite the match official seen on video watching as he scraped his studs down Robin van Persie’s face.
Today’s match, though, is where this philosophy reached its zenith. Song was pulled and punched in the back of the head for shielding Delap from the ball, and it was Song who got a yellow card — he’ll reportedly serve a 2 match ban for that being his 10th yellow. When the score was tied, Stoke committed as clear a penalty on Aaron Ramsey as I have seen all season; it was a no-call that I think changed the game. Had Arsenal gone up 2-1 at that point (which they deserved) it would have opened the game up a bit and might have prevented the type of challenge that Shawcross felt he needed to commit in order to keep their share of the points. But Shawcross did go for the ball, full blooded. No doubt goaded on by his manager at half-time to “get stuck in.” But also given free reign by the match official, Peter Walton, after he saw his teammates kick and cheat their was into the game.
When the FA allow teams to simply kick technically proficient sides like Arsenal off the pitch there are consequences. Let’s hope today’s consequence isn’t the end of 19 year old Aaron Ramsey’s bright career.
Excellent post. This is the direct result of the FA allowing kicking of technical teams. The only way this will be fixed is from a change of philosophy.
This is disgusting. The English match officials will never change until the press and public demand it. And the English public opinion is still dominated by people who hate Wenger because he is foreign, and Arsenal because they win games without intentional fouling and the long ball. It’s not simple apathy, it’s animosity. The FA has absolutely no spine to take the lead in this matter, and the majority of English fans are basically cavemen.
I’m gutted for Ramsey… the kid has been amazing. Maybe by the time he’s 23 he’ll be fully recovered.
Tim, just for the record – Diaby’s injury was on May 1st, 2006. So it’s even 4 yrs, not 5.
BTW, amazing how very similar write-up I have posted an hour ago on my Polish blog, using the famous Emil Zola’s “J’accuse” phrase.
But I have also blamed the FIFA and the UEFA – instead of the whole post-Eduardo diving bullshit they should really take care of issues like this one, making it in some cases possible to ban the guilty player for at least as long as the injured guy’s is unable to play footbal.
I’m also stunned how the media can shift the focus from the real victim to the perp, making him a victim instead. Look at this Telegraph’s headline – http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/arsenal/7332872/Arsenals-Aaran-Ramsey-involved-in-horror-tackle-with-Stokes-Ryan-Shawcross.html So now he’s involved in a tackle? You could even think he’s involved as a tackler?
Anyway, let’s win the league for Aaron! I’m sure I’ll cry if on May 22nd I see a young Welshman on crutches struggling to lift the trophy above his head.
I can’t even bring myself to watch the DVR of the match.
I don’t want to hear about Shawcross’ tears, Tony Pulis. I don’t want to hear what a nice lad he is. I don’t want to hear that he was so upset his mum came & picked him up straight away from the stadium. Ryan Shawcross broke Aaron Ramsey’s leg. Horrifically. End. Of. Story.
Having said that, it’s to be expected that Pulis would try to put the least damaging spin on what happened. For the media to come to Shawcross’ defense (yes, I’m looking DIRECTLY AT YOU, goal.com!), is beyond shameless.
Good article, although it is hard to blame Steve Bennett, as he wasn’t the referee.
I think Arsenal should announce that they will sue the next team and player to do this. It might encourage opponents to take a bit more care and it will put the skids under the FA, because they hate football matters being taken to litigation.
“Times” reminds that good lad Shawcross broke Jeffers’ ankle with a tackle from behind 3 years ago – http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/arsenal/article7043736.ece
XTG Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 8:12 pm
@Miko_Gooner, Yep. Was going to post that.
Ramsay was one of my favorite gooners, still is, but you don’t bounce back from an injury like that and reach your full potential right away. This is a prime time in his career to be developing his style and and gaining key experience. Shawcross is human, and he knew what he did, and he’s not a total ass, but he is just like anyone else, and he’ll do what he can get away with. You play Arsenal hard because you can get away with it. The ref was letting shite like that happen all day, I’m actually quite surprised at the red card, and that he even blew the whistle. Ramsay had another one earlier, we all remember, that should have been called.
Miko_Gooner Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
@mcnabber, I can assure you there would be no card brandished if Ramsey’s leg hadn’t looked like a nunchaku covered with sock.
Tim Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 6:03 pm
@Miko_Gooner, Atkinson didn’t give a card for a dangerous tackle on Cesc in the FA Cup match:
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/report?id=285993&cc=5901
The Law Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 6:09 pm
@Tim,
There’s an interesting statistic on that page. Stoke committed 20 fouls in that game. They got 0 cards.
Good write up Tim.
After watching Chelsea lose, I was excited at the prospect of closing the gap to 3. If you had told me the cost, I’m not sure I would have taken it. Its sickening that someone with so much potential is now having to fight for his career because he was to “quick” and the player that he was quicker than just got called up to his national team….
A4D Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 12:38 am
@Nathan, he was called up for the team because England just don’t have any quality players, that much is obvious.
good article, one little error though. steve bennett wasn’t the ref today it was Peter Walton.
Tim Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 5:40 pm
@Adam, I fixed that and the 5 year/4 year discrepancy.
Thankis.
And let’s not forget Shawcross’ tackle on Adebayor in the same fixture last year – late, two-footed, from behind, and indeed actually off the pitch – which the officials let go despite Adebayor being out for about a month after it.
Or for that matter, the playacting by Shawcross which saw Adebayor sent off in the Stoke-Citeh game during the week.
Not that kind of guy, my arse. Frankly, there’s no-one who’s more that type of guy in the English game, except Stephen Hunt, maybe.
LRV Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 5:49 pm
Add to that his tackle from behind which broke Francis Jeffers ankle about three years ago. He is a monster alright; not a jack-good-lad.
Tim Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 6:06 pm
@LRV,
Jeffers:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/arsenal/article7043736.ece
Adebayor:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/s/stoke_city/7710894.stm
A4D Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 12:40 am
@john, in truth Stephen Hunt does get kicked a fair amount during matches and then can’t control his temperament
Thanks for that post Tim. It’s unthinkable that Aaron Ramsey’s career is over. I’m gutted over the whole thing. I wish him the best recovery he can achieve. The best. Thanks again for writing.
Tim, I’ve had it. I’m still seething at that “tackle”. We’ve seen 3 Arsenal players in 4 years suffer virtually the same kind of injury – the breaks always involve their ankles. I’m hard pressed to remember the last time a Man U or Chelsea player got his foot broken by some limited ability cretin.
Sure, Shawcross wept as he left the field, but as you say Tim, it’s much the same as a drunk driver running over a kid. He realises he’s done something horrible, and fair play to him for that, but that doesn’t excuse his recklessness.
I’m sure over the next few days, Wenger is going to get slammed for blasting the good, honest English lad Shawcross when Arsene is just a Frenchie.
I hope the bloggers and pundits who perpetuate this culture of always kicking Arsenal because “they don’t like it” and who keep beating the “Arsenal are not English enough” drum take a good long, hard look at themselves at see the price of their stupidity. People like Myles Palmer who constantly uses racial slurs to describe Arsenal and does his level best to drive home our “foreignness.”
Somehow, they have (again) turned the assaulter into the victim. When that Chelsea lad broke Rooney’s toe some seasons back, the media were up in arms, screaming blue murder. If some plonker broke Stevie Me’s leg, they’d fucking crucify him, and you can bet your ass the FA would introduce restrospective bans for such tackles sharpish.
If I was Wenger, I would give two fucks about an FA fine or touchline ban, and I would come out and say, “Fuck the FA for not protecting skilled players, fuck the refs for always allowing our opponents kick us and get away with it, fuck the media for continuing to talk about Arsenal being “foreign”, and finally, fuck Tony Pulis and his nice English lad Ryan Shawcross.”
That is how enraged I am by this fucking bullshit.
The Law Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 5:36 pm
@The Law,
And Mr. Shawcross, I hope John Terry fucks your wife up the arse!
LRV Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 5:53 pm
Bullshit it really is. I would say the as you, but I am not sure that I’ll put it quite so nicely.
They’re all saying Rambo was a little too fast for poor Shawcross. Well fuck me sideways!
Here I was thinking that every footballer’s aim is to be a little faster to the ball, a little more skilled than the other guy. I didn’t realize until today that it is actually a fucking crime to be a good footballer. At least, in England.
How fucking retarded are the English media? Do they ensure you’re a fucking retard before they give you a newspaper column? Wait, don’t answer that – Graham “3 Yellows” Poll is a pundit with a column.
What a bunch of fucking morons!
At this point we really can’t say what exactly this will do to his career until we know the nature of the break. If it was a clean break, instead of a compound fracture, then it will be really easy to set and should heal without too much trouble or time. Until we know the nature of the injury its hard to say what will happen to poor Aaron but the kid is a fighter and I am sure he will find a way to make it back.
LMAO! Do you know how pathetic you sound making this out to be some sort of conspiracy against arsenal. yes arsenal play a lovely game sometimes, but they seriously lack what it takes in the physical department. it’s no coincidence you hav’nt won anything significant in years since the like of viera, adams and keown were your ‘enforcers’. so stop moaning you sorry bunch of melts it was a terrible accident and a yellow card at the most
ctpa Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 8:43 pm
Fuck you!!!!
Tim Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
@Eric, so, what we need is leg breakers too and then we won’t get our legs broken?
You realize how stupid that sounds or shall I paint it on your cave wall? Maybe if I make it into pictures you’ll understand.
Ivan Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 10:02 pm
he’s right… you are a sorry bunch of moaners.
munawwar Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 12:26 am
fuck you both… i hope you are chelsea fans who have won 100 trophies and lot of history… it will be fun in 2012 with the financial fair play rule… with no youth academy in 2-3 years its all going to be over with average age of 31 that you currently have…. and if you are man u and liverpool fan pay your 1 billion debt.
and as far we moan … FUCK YOU… this is no way football should be played by playing rough. even suggesting playing rough means you know you suck in your abilties… and thats how it is….
I saw a comment to a FoxSoccer article arguing that Ramsey had “dived in” to get the ball and that Shawcross was simply making a good, strong clearance. “Shouldn’t have even been a foul,” was the claim. I expect we’ll see more of this in the British press tomorrow. Though with Ramsey being a Welshman, there will be a little more sympathy, I expect, than when our Frenchman and Crozillian were “done” …
Teams intend to play physically against Arsenal because the word is we “don’t fancy it”. That leads to Arsenal being kicked all over the pitch and these sort of horrific injuries. But what this game proved, along with our resilience to stay in the title hunt despite tough losses to Chelse and ManU, is that Arsenal this year will not be bullied. We came back after Ramsey’s injury with great intensity and determination and won that game. That’s the best way to dealvwith the situation. Arsenal lost the game after Eduardo’s leg was broken and collapsed in the league that season. This time the incident needs to be the angry motivation to tilt to the title with a devastating display of determination and prowess, rather than allowing the team to feel victimized. Wenger does need to make the case against the poor refereeing that doesn’t protect skill and technique in the game. But nothing will be more effective than showing that these tactics simply won’t work against Arsenal because the teambis too strong, tough, resilient and skilled to be stopped. That’s the messge the team needs to send.
I wish the FA would hand out harsher punishments, like the Belgian FA do. Perhaps a ban for as long as the other person is out? Yes that’d do nicely.
Miko_Gooner Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 8:27 am
@XTG, Witsel just got 8 match ban, while his victim Marcin Wasilewski still isn’t playing and can forget about this season. 8 games only, while it was one of the most vicious, disgusting, leg-breaking challenges I’ve ever seen. So the Belgian FA isn’t really that stern.
I not feeling very eloquent or witty tonight. I would like to second everything the Law said because I don’t want to redundant. Before this game I called Shawcross a bastard and said we would have to watch out for him. I am not psychic. Shawcross was a repeat offender before today. I remembered the Adebayor tackle which was gratuitive violence at it’s worst and reminded me of Thatcher’s elbow on Mendes that was also off the field of play.
The real shame today is that this fucker gets ‘rewarded’ with an England call up. I’ve lost all respect for Capello because he sees this as the best that England have to ‘offer’. When the US takes on England, I hope the US supporters scream ’1960′ the whole game.
The tackle was horrible and I really feel for Ramsey, he really was a great prospect who I wanted to see at Old Trafford. However, how would the FA define technically gifted teams and try to defend them? What would the criteria be? Or are you suggesting that teams who come out and simply state that they will rough teams up should be punished? It’s a tricky one for sure.
Regardless, I feel sick to the stomach for the lad. He was a great prospect and I wish him a quick and full recovery. I remember Henrik Larson breaking his leg in a European game for Celtic many years ago and wondering if the guy would ever walk again, let alone play professional football. It took a while, but he came back just as strong. Let’s hope Ramsey will do the same.
Tim Reply:
February 27th, 2010 at 11:15 pm
@Chuck S, I’d start by handing out lengthier bans for players who commit leg breaking tackles. What sense does it make that Song is serving a two match ban for his 10th yellow, (and did you see his yellow??) Ramsey will be out for a year, while Shawcross will be back in three matches?
S Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 8:50 am
@Tim, Why are leg breakers not banned for up to the same amount of time that the person whose leg they broke is out for? It’s their fault that the person is out injured so why should they be allowed to play so soon after the incident?
Tim, I don’t think we would have got the penalty in the final minutes of the game if that horrific leg break incident had not happened………
Its sickening to know u loose three players of the same team in a period of 4 years, It cannot be coincidence like Arsene said. I think FA should impose further ban like the Belgian FA.
Which I fully expect will not happen.
Get Well Soon Aaron.
There is a problem in England and it lies with the FA who allow match officials to allow technically proficient players to be assaulted. The fact that they are for the most part foreign makes them ‘easy’ prey. The new breed of technical proficient footballer that Trevor Brooking wants to create in England will never flourish in a society where the FA legislate to the lowest common denominator of its football public. That common denominator loves football that played like it’s a mixed martial art especially if the opponent is Arsenal.
One thing I don’t want to do is say that all foreign players are skillful and not criminals. Ballack is a jedi master of vicious tackles. Today his luck ran out. Let’s not forget Diouf.
All this crap about how nice Shawcross or fucking Pulis ,i am getting sick and tired of it.May be it should happen to some english players,and then we will see the reaction ,the English are Xenophobic lot and until it happens to someone else it is not their problem ,Pathetic!!
Right up there with this well-written post. In discussing this elsewhere someone commented: “It is a mans game – tackles, irrespective of how one looks at it are always going to happen – some bad some good – players have it far too easy now a days”
Do let me add this person also turned 64 yesterday
Say no more
I commented on this elsewhere, thus:
The problem is not whether Shawcross (or Taylor or Smith) went in with the aim of injuring – which today I don’t think he did – but it is exactly as one commenter astutely said:
“…they didn’t care enough about the consequences of getting it wrong…”
The blame for that lies squarely at the door of the manager who tells his team when playing Arsenal to “get amongst them”, “give them one early doors” & “they don’t like it up ‘em” at the expense of actually bothering to pick any football tactics.
Of /course/ Shawcross was upset, because the man he looks up to, the man who picked him in the team, the man who gave him his instructions for the matchday – his manager – has essentially lied to him by not explaining fully the consequences of “getting it wrong”.
So what you are hearing from Arsenal fans, on here, on the other blogs, on the news websites and on Twitter is an outpouring of emotion following yet another example of a team who can’t live with Arsenal’s superior football skill being directly instructed to use _unreasonable_ force to try and counter it. And that appalling injury is what happens; asking Gooners to calm down and/or have a bit of perspective is just a little bit late in the day.
Get well soon, Aaron.
Patrick Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 6:59 am
@fourstar, well said.
Well said,fourstar
I am fearing the worst….
I’m afraid this is the kind of shit that happens when at least a dozen teams in the EPL each year realistically have no shot at finishing in the top 4. The players on these teams feel they have a right to be reckless in order to compensate for the very wide disparity in talent between their thuggish teams and their opponents that actually know how to play both effectively and beautifully as our squad does. Sickened by all this and just feel this grave sense of injustice.
pulis claiming shawcross is a “nice guy” demonstrates his own cowardice.
pulis is the guy who instructed his team to go out and hack our players.
pulis is the shower of sh!te cvntflap who put shawcross up to this.
By “defending” shawcross, pulis is deflecting attention away from his own massive culpability in this incident.
He’s trying to subtly hang shawcross out to dry to cover his own guilt.
What a coward!
What a scumbucket!
pulis should either shut his gob or have it shut for him.
What would really be fitting would be to pick the first of the morons in the media who tries to excuse this sh!t and go and break his leg.
We could then apologise, say we’ve never done anything like this before, and tell them to “man up”.
One can only dream unfortunately……
XTG Reply:
February 28th, 2010 at 8:16 am
@MikeSA, Aye.
I want to correct my ’1960′ cheer. I want the US supporters in South Africa to shout ’1950′ during the USA-England game. We can upset England and nothing would give me greater pleasure than to beat England in ‘their’ game, again.
1960 actually refers to the Squaw Valley Olympics where the USA beat Canada at ‘their’ game, hockey. Hopefully we can repeat today. Speaking of ice hockey, there is example of a well regulated sport where violence is part and parcel of the game. A hit from behind, a hit to the head are severely dealt with. 5 min major penalty (the penalized team plays a man down no matter how many goals are scored), the offender is kicked out of the game and the league usually suspends the player for 5-6 games without pay. If you are a repeat offender, then you’re suspended for months and that is also without pay as well. Hit players in their wallets and maybe they will get a clue.
A player (Cormier) elbowed a player in the head at center ice in a major-junior game and he has been suspended for the rest of the season. He was the top draft pick of the NJ Devils and they traded his ass away before he even put on their jersey.
I’m glad Sol Campbell was in yesterday’s squad and not William Gallas. I’m glad Fabregas is our Captain. I’m glad that Wenger is our manager. I’m glad that Arsenal are who we are.
Ramsey had surgery for his tib-fib fracture last night I will predict that he will be back in less time than Eduardo because I don’t think the ankle was involved. Getting back and ‘being’ back will be 2 different things as we have seen with Eduardo.
I would like to say to the media that they correct Ramsey headlines which have some version of “he broke his leg…’ he did not break his leag. His leg was broken. Get that part right and maybe you can restore some credibility (right
You know playing for Arsenal in the EPL should not be like landing on the beach at Normandy.
“3 players in 4 years, 3 different tackles, 3 different reasons, all the same result, all the same culprit”
Just wanted to add – it could have been 4 players. I recall Vieira having his shin pad broken from an appalling tackle from a Sheffield Utd(?) thug too.
I realize he didn’t suffer a broken leg on that occasion, if only because the pad bore the force. But the point is the recklessness of these challenges as players have total disregard for their fellow professionals as they launch themselves through the air, completely out of control, in the general direction of the ball, hoping just to at least nick it so as to somehow justify the clattered player they’ve left prostrate on the ground.
I’m not saying that describes the Shawcross challenge. But the mentality to attempt these low percentage tackles is there. And it reeks of an ambivalence to the potential consequences.
Graham Poll…
“Ryan Shawcross’ tackle on Aaron Ramsey was no accident”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1254472/GRAHAM-POLL-Ryan-Shawcross-tackle-Aaron-Ramsey-accident.html
http://gunnerblog.com/?p=2218
I hope gunnerblog arrived at the assertion that it was good thing that Gallas was not at the Stoke game independent of my previous statement on the matter.
I’d love to know if there has been any responce from the FA or if there’s any way of eliciting a responce.